The Pro Wrestling Debate on French National Television in 1966

The leading French catch promoters and the public debate whether catch is sport or show live on TV.

Picture this scenario. The year is 1966. Pro wrestling, or catch as it was/is known in France, is airing on both French national television channels and is very popular in the country. At the time there was a French television show called "Sports debates", which was exactly what it sounds like - a debate, live on national TV, on a particular sports-related topic. The topic of discussion for the 12 March 1966 episode of the show was catch or more specifically "catch - sport or spectacle?". In other words, they were debating whether pro wrestling was a real sport or a scripted show. Of course, by 1966 pro wrestling matches were predetermined and had been predetermined for a long time, but this was still the era of kayfabe and no one from the wrestling business back then would admit publicly what the real nature of the business was.

The next logical question here is who were the participants in the debate? And that's exactly what made this TV debate so unique and so unlike anything else in pro wrestling history. On one side there were random members of the public and on the other side stood the leaders of three of the four top pro wrestling companies/booking offices in France and a representative of the fourth one too. Let's break down the participants:

- Jean-Louis Marest - Part of the booking office, headed by Roger Delaporte, based out of the Elysée Montmartre venue in Paris. Some of the headliners of the Delaporte company at the time were Eddy Wiecz (a.k.a. Edouard Carpentier), André Bollet, Roger Delaporte, Peter Maivia, Frank Valois, Robert Gastel, Gaby Calderon, Warnia de Zarzecki, etc.

- Etienne Siry and Robert Lageat - The bosses of the booking office based out of the Palais de la Mutualité venue in Paris. We'll talk about their headline stars below, but it's also worth mentioning that at the time they were also pushing two brand new stars - Jean Ferré (a.k.a. Andre the Giant) and "Le Petit Prince" Albéric d'Éricourt.

- Maurice Durand - The boss of the booking office based out of the Salle Wagram venue in Paris. At the time Durand had a working relationship with Siry/Lageat and the two groups would share talent. Some of their headliners were L'Ange Blanc (Francisco Pino), Gilbert Leduc, Rene Lasartesse, Robert Duranton, James Brown, Tito Kopa, etc. 

- Alex Goldstein - The boss of the booking office based out of the Cirque d'Hiver venue in Paris. Some of his headliners at the time were Gil Voiney, Andre Drapp, L'Homme Masqué I (Jacob Grobbe), L'Homme Masqué II (Georges Kasbarian), René Ben Chemoul, Ivan Strogoff, etc.

- René Ben Chemoul - One of Goldstein's top stars and, unbeknownst to the general public back then, co-owner of the Goldstein company. He wasn't part of the official line-up for the debate, but was in the audience and got to speak a bit. 

Left to right: Jean-Louis Marest, Etienne Siry, Maurice Durand, Robert Lageat, Alex Goldstein

To put it simply, almost all of the big bosses of French catch took part in this debate. The only exception was Delaporte, who sent Marest in his place. The catch bosses presented a relatively united front in the debate, because they were there to essentially defend their business, but even so a couple of them managed to sneak in shots at each other. You have to keep in mind, they were all rivals after all (with the exception of Siry/Lageat and Durand, who had an alliance at the time).

Below you will find the full transcript of the 30-minute debate, translated from French. It's an automatic transcription and translation - I didn't do it myself, I just fixed some things to make it more understandable. To give you extra context about certain statements, I've also added a few notes by me.

The Pro Wrestling Debate on French National Television in 1966
(full transcript)

- Raymond Marcillac (the host): Ladies, gentlemen, good evening. Today we're going to talk about a type of television show that will certainly be of great interest to our viewers, since it's about catch. And I can already see them smiling because when we see a catch show on television, we always smile, we always have a little fun. This debate will take place as usual, live and in public. The rules are simple. Anyone can come here and ask questions of the personalities we've invited. Obviously, we simply ask that these questions be asked with elegance, but anything is still welcome. The theme of our debate today is simple. It will be based on the question: is catch a sport or is it a spectacle? Well, with that in mind, I hope we can try to clarify this topic. We have invited the greatest catch organizers from Paris and France. They are here, they are the ones who will answer the questions. The questions that will be asked. First of all, Mr. Jean-Louis Marest, who represents the Palais des Sports, the Elysée Montmartre, and who is also a catch referee. Mr. Etienne Siry, who is the organizer of the Salle de la Mutualité. Mr. Maurice Durand, organizer of the Salle Wagram. Mr. Robert Lageat, also organizer of the Salle de la Mutualité. Mr. Alex Goldstein, organizer at the Cirque d'Hiver. So I'll turn right away to Mr. Jean-Louis Marest, who is the organizer of the Elysée Montmartre. I would like to know if there are, among the people here, some people who would like to ask these gentlemen questions. Let's see. Sir, I'm going to ask you to come over to us, sit down here, to my right, sit as comfortably as possible, and give your name, first name, and profession. 

- Audience member: Mr. Jacques Boutin, PTT employee.

- Raymond Marcillac: So wait, I think Mr. Durand had something to say first.
 
- Maurice Durand: Yes, I have. A quick word to clarify the debate. Sport or spectacle? My son Jean-Marc, 6 and a half years old, gave me the definition of catch. I found it strikingly true. "Dad", he said, "catch is a sport for the wrestlers and a show for the spectators". I think everything we say tonight will revolve around these two truths. One more word as a preamble. We are reviled - oh, how we are reviled. And the tabloid press took an interest in us last summer because the Loch Ness Monster hadn't shown itself. The Tour de France without Jacques Anquetil was missing spice. Miss X's illicit love affairs had been legitimized, and the Princess of Z’s dashed hopes of offspring no longer interested anyone. We met with scornful silence that web of stupid slanders spun by a contemporary - someone whom, despite my nineteen years in the profession, I had never once seen in a wrestling ring. 

Note: I'm missing some context here. Durand was basically asserting that the year prior the tabloid press had nothing interesting to write about so they were writing negative stuff about catch and trying to expose the business, but I don't know anything about that particular exposé.

- Raymond Marcillac: Mr. Durand, I see you've already presented your defense perfectly even though you weren't attacked.

- Maurice Durand: We were, Mr. Marcillac.

- Raymond Marcillac: Finally, sir, please, now would you like to ask your question?

- Jacques Boutin: Mr. Marest, you have refereed matches with masked wrestlers 20 times. What do you think of this charade?

- Jean-Louis Marest: First of all, I hate masks. Well, you're in luck, I've actually refereed catch matches with masked wrestlers. There was a time when I worked for an organizer who loved masks, and who actually loved them, they were his hobby. So, I did, in fact, I refereed his matches. However, I'm against it because there's nothing more real than a wrestler experiencing his match, seeing his face, seeing all his features, seeing his suffering, seeing his reactions. At least there, we live with the wrestler and the spectator can live with the wrestler. So, I'm absolutely against these charades, as you say. I hope they'll stop soon. And I don't understand, by the way, why French television recently broadcast another catch match with masks.

Note: I'm fairly certain Marest was taking a shot at Goldstein with the comment about the organizer (i.e. promoter) who loved masked wrestlers.

- Raymond Marcillac: I would point out that television, in particular, is not under attack. That's not the problem.

- Maurice Durand: I can give you my opinion. There are pure sports that are spectacular, like football or rugby, for example. There are poorer relatives, such as weightlifting, amateur wrestling, swimming, and athletics. Without the prestigious presence of Michel Jazy and a large lineup, they would have done nothing, Mr. Marcillac. An indoor France-Germany match in Lyon undoubtedly doesn't attract enough people for the quality of the spectacle it offers. So it seems that amateur individual sports need some real superstars. This is also true for catch and other professional sports, like boxing and cycling. The search for the ultimate champion is crucial. I read in an article in "L'Equipe" newspaper, the day after a packed weightlifting competition at Gymnase Japy, lamenting that without the Russian champion, there would have been no one there. It is in this truth, in my opinion, sir, that we must seek the reason for the excessive use of masks in the attire of certain wrestlers with their colorful costumes and historical or fantastical names. In short, the search for color, because in today's catch, you have to be colorful to stand out. But it is unfair to judge catch based on its excesses. Many athletes in other disciplines have often been open to criticism, and it would have been unfair to equate their sport with their personal failings.

- Raymond Marcillac: Mr. Durand, you anticipated this question.

- Maurice Durand: I answered it. I'm constantly hearing about this.

- Raymond Marcillac: I see you've prepared your answer very well. Sir, are you satisfied with these answers, or are there other organizers who want to answer the gentleman's question? Mr. Goldstein?

- Alex Goldstein: I'll answer. First of all, when we talk about masks, we take the wrestler who comes with his mask. To answer Mr. Marest, it's no more ridiculous to present a masked wrestler than it is to present six men in a ring. Mr. Marest can answer that. It has nothing to do with the wrestlers' athleticism, their class, or their skill.

Note: This was Goldstein firing back at Marest. It was Delaporte who introduced six-man tag team matches to France in November 1965 and his company was the only one doing them at the time.

- Raymond Marcillac: In other words, it's multi-person catch that you...

- Jean-Louis Marest: Yes, but six-person catch, by the way, we discovered it later. I apologize, but six-person catch came from four-person catch. We wanted something new, and we got six-person catch, with much faster movements. We manage to have a match that's much more... much more eventful. The wrestlers no longer sleep in the ring. Therefore, I think it was a blessing in disguise. Yes, we continue to do it, we continue to...

- Alex Goldstein: I have the impression, sir, that...

- Raymond Marcillac: Please, let's not all speak at once, everyone should speak in turn, otherwise we cannot hear each other.

- Alex Goldstein: It no longer has anything to do with sport. The masked wrestler can be an accomplished athlete. However, presenting six men in a ring at the same time no longer has anything to do with sport, and that's what harms catch. Because catch, in fact, is a sport. It's a spectacular sport, but I would like someone to tell me the difference between a spectacular sport and the spectacle we commonly see with football. Football is a sporting spectacle, exactly the same as catch. And there are people who have the mania, absolutely the mania, of seeing fixes in all sports. I heard that the Tour de France was fixed. But do you think we let Mr. Anquetil win because he's the weakest? That's completely stupid. If Mr. Anquetil wins, it's because he's the strongest.

- Raymond Marcillac: Well, that's all. I think, Mr. Goldstein, that we haven't yet questioned, well, we haven't yet asked these questions, since Mr. Boutin simply asked the question about the masked wrestlers. So, I don't know if... Wait, maybe Mr. Lageat would have something to say.

- Robert Lageat: I think the question was insidious, because in fact, we didn't come here to expose a feud between organizers. Catch, you see, was simply carried along by a current. It was the public who wanted it that way. Obviously, real catch and good catch speak for themselves. They wanted to exaggerate, but I don't understand it very well, and I'm not at all Mr. Marest on... Or rather, Mr. Boutin, who asks Mr. Goldstein an insidious question, talking to him about masks, when everyone here, all of us organizers, we've created masks, we've done four-man matches. It's in line with the public's wishes.

- Raymond Marcillac: Mr. Lageat, that's not an insidious question.

- Robert Lageat: Yes, it's a trick question, Mr. Marcillac.

- Raymond Marcillac: Mr. Lageat, it's not a trick question. It's normal for someone to ask a question.

- Jacques Boutin: I've never seen a cyclist wear a mask.

- Robert Lageat: There was, for example, a wrestler who was absolutely extraordinary. Everyone recognizes him. He made the entire crowd move. He was the great, great man of catch. He's L'Ange Blanc. I don't think there's anything objectionable there.

- Jean-Louis Marest: Yes, because it's been imitated. It's been imitated 25 times and very badly. Therefore, this is bad.

- Robert Lageat: L'Ange Blanc may have been imitated, Mr. Marest, but I think that, like us, you're rather, how shall I put it, poorly placed to criticize catch when it comes to masks. It's certain, for example, that some wrestlers don't need masks - I apologize for saying this - to be funny. I'm not going to name any names. I have the impression that...

- Raymond Marcillac: Do the answers satisfy you, Mr. Boutin?

- Jacques Boutin: Now, I would like to ask Mr. Marest as well. We never talk about injuries caused by catch, like we talk about those suffered by boxers after a fight. And yet, they are sometimes serious.

- Jean-Louis Marest: On this subject, I brought a journal, a medical journal, the "Review of Rheumatism", which contains an article by Professor Layani and Professor Roeser, both eminent professors at the Pitié Hospital, which I think will answer this question very well. I'll excerpt two or three parts from it. This study examined 30 professional wrestlers. Of the 30 subjects examined, 24, or four fifths, presented with osteoarticular injuries. In some, these injuries were multiple, affecting several joints, and representing 53 locations. The joint lesions affect the elbows, cervical spine, and knees. And you have 17 other affected locations.

- Raymond Marcillac: Mr. Siry, you wanted to say something.

- Etienne Siry:  I wanted to say something. It's true that there are many accidents during matches, and we don't want to alarm certain organizers who thought they were taking risks, I mean, with these accidents. And it's true that we very frequently have injured wrestlers substituted. The organizers don't understand this, saying, "Oh, but so-and-so isn't on the schedule, and in fact, so-and-so is in surgery because he has a torn meniscus, because he has a displaced cervical spine." I think we've answered your question..

- Jean-Louis Marest: Besides, there's a glaring example - Lino Ventura. He's an actor who had his leg broken by Henri Cogan in the ring and who has now become a very great actor.

- Raymond Marcillac: Mr. Marest, to shed more light on the gentleman's question, if you will, I see Mr. Ben Chemoul in the audience, who is a wrestler himself and who has just raised his hand. Please, Mr. Ben Chemoul, come closer.

- Jean-Louis Marest: He was also examined by Dr. Roeser. He took 20 or 25 X-rays of him.

- Raymond Marcillac: No need to introduce yourself. We know you. So, do you want to say what you mean? Explain, of course.

- René Ben Chemoul: Indeed, we've grown to about thirty wrestlers in the traumatology department at the Pitié Hospital. But aside from that, I must point out that in France, in all, there are about 350 of us professional wrestlers. You must admit that's not a lot. Because, normally, in any sport, the number of fans is much higher. Why are there so few of us? Because, precisely, it's very hard. Because, precisely, we're all little museums of fractures. I've had 13. Not to mention dislocations, sprains, or anything related to those things. And I'm not the only one. Currently, we have three broken legs. Well, three wrestlers.

- Maurice Durand: Four.

- René Ben Chemoul: Four. You see? I don't know. I wasn't aware of the fourth one.

- Maurice Durand: Yes, M'Boaba, who suffered a fracture exactly a month ago on 12 February.

- Jacques Boutin: So, I'm telling you, sir, that's precisely what the press should be reporting so that everyone understands that this is nonsense. Whereas here, you're proving that it's not nonsense.

- Raymond Marcillac: Yes, sir, but then, I don't think it's up to these gentlemen to respond. There, you just attacked, you just said the press. The press should be talking about it, it's true, but perhaps that will be the subject of another discussion on another day. Mr. Ben Chemoul, again, because I'd still like other people to be able to ask questions.

- René Ben Chemoul: Anyway, I'd like, first of all, to thank the organizers of this show. This is the first time, to my knowledge, that we've been given the opportunity to defend ourselves. Because we've always been criticized to the max by the press, radio, and television. It must be said.

- Jacques Boutin: But I, here, present, admire you all.

- Raymond Marcillac: Thank you, sir. Well, Mr. Ben Chemoul, thank you, in any case, for what you just said for us, but I don't think you've been attacked much on television. Because you have, deep down, sometimes done television a favor, especially when you give us a good show. No, no, not directly, but sometimes, in one way or another. Well, sir, would you be so kind as to come and put yourself in Mr. Ben Chemoul's shoes, who will be able to speak again whenever he sees fit, since he is an expert in this field. Thank you very much, sir, for coming all the way here. Your name?

- Audience member: Raymond Batelain. I wanted to ask a question specifically to Mr. Marest, who, I believe, has made quite a few films. I'd like to know if the matches are prepared in advance like some on-screen brawls.

- Jean-Louis Marest: You shouldn't confuse cinema with catch. They're completely different. In catch, it's wrestlers, wrestlers who come from freestyle wrestling, Greco-Roman wrestling. Sometimes judo. And they're amateurs first and foremost. And then they become professionals. So, to be professionals, first of all, they can't fix a match. For the simple reason that they start out very small. They do the curtain raisers. And to become semi-stars and then stars, they have to beat, precisely, those who are semi-stars and then stars. Therefore, you can't say that there's any way to fix a match, because the curtain-raiser will never become a star. It's no longer possible.

- Maurice Durand: I've often been complimented on the quality of my programs, and it's happened to my colleagues as well, and I've been told it's magnificently orchestrated. How can you imagine orchestrating 30, 40, or 45 minutes of fighting down to the second or tenth of a second? In my opinion, catch should be compared to the comedy on El Arte. It's based on a familiar theme. The opponent, for example, Ben Chemoul, since we're talking about Ben Chemoul, given that he's here, is facing a villain whose style he knows all the characteristics of, and he plays his match to the other wrestler's style. He's very happy that the opposing styles are on his rope, and that's what makes a good match. And nothing was ever planned between wrestlers who come from the most improbably opposite backgrounds. It happened, didn't it, René, that a wrestler came from Oceania the very morning of a match, and you met him at 8:00 p.m. at the Cirque d'Hiver where you were wrestling. So a highly rehearsed orchestration could not be further from the truth. The match, a catch match, if you want to compare it to a show, can only be compared to the Commedia dell'arte, and here again, hats off, because there's no given theme.

- Raymond Batelain: Sir, I'm going to ask another question, again a question about cinema. I'd like to know how many wrestlers get involved in cinema. Do you have more accidents in the fights you stage for the screen than in your matches?

- Maurice Durand: No. You know, you have wrestlers who are somewhat specialized in what we call cinematic acrobatics. They are people who are known in film circles as stuntmen.

- Raymond Batelain: Often, great wrestlers, even lesser ones, are also employed in film.

- Maurice Durand: No, no, they're never big stars. Because a catch star doesn't have time to do stunts in the movies. I'm appealing to René Ben Chemoul. A big star practically doesn't have time to do stunts. It's not possible. Good secondary wrestlers. Besides, Mr. Lageat, who... I'm going to pass the floor to him. He'll be able to answer you better than I can, given that he has a direct interest in the matter because he did two or three stunts in Roger Hanin's last two or three films, I believe. So, go ahead. Robert, it's your turn.

- Robert Lageat: Well, I think it's obvious that there are far more accidents in catch matches than there are in movies, where we have fights that are pre-planned. When there's a catch match, unfortunately, accidents are unpredictable. And since we're talking about accidents, I'd also like to say, it's perhaps not within the scope of this show, but in catch, it's still worth noting that there are many wrestlers who have died before the age of 40. To talk about fake again, for example, since Ben Chemoul is here, I'd like to tell the audience and the viewers the story that happened, how shall I put it, to someone who Ben Chemoul met in Bourges in 1947, I think, Santucci. There were a lot of people in the venue that day. And there were nearly 1,500 people shouting "Fake" to the tune of "Les lampions". But bad luck for those people, and especially bad luck for Santucci. The next day, he died in the hospital. There was Al Cabrol who died after his match in Charleroi. Liano Pellacani who died, how shall I put it, prematurely. We were attacked by a newspaper whose name I won't say, how shall I put it, because I think it's forbidden on television. Well, at the same time, Le Bourreau de Béthune, who made a lot of people come to the shows, was dying in the hospital. Pierre Boss, 37, died in the hospital. Al Cabrol, Pellacani, Charles Rigoulot, Manuel, and many others. It's obvious that catch is not a show, but a spectacular sport. But it offers many dangers. I can tell you something. I have a son named Jacky Corn, who is the World Middleweight champion. Well, his mother and I can't wait for his career to end. Because catch is very dangerous.

Note: Mathéo Santucci was a popular example that would often be mentioned back in those days in France when talking about how real and dangerous catch matches could be. Santucci was a young Corsican wrestler who died in May 1949 as a result of an injury he suffered in a match in Bourges.

- Raymond Marcillac: Are you satisfied with the answers?

- Raymond Batelain: Yes, but I didn't mean to say that catch was fake. I was simply saying this: I wanted to know if there were more accidents. I got the explanation: more accidents in matches than in the fights organized on screen.

- Robert Lageat: I'd also like to say something. There's a legend that says catch results are given to the police prefecture. I have, how shall I put it, announced in a major daily newspaper. I'll give a million to anyone who can prove that the results were filed in advance with the police. And I'll give you more details. To obtain authorization to organize catch, you must contact a department called the theater department. So do me a favor, go ahead, and if you provide me with proof that the results have been submitted to the police in advance, I'll give you a million.

Note: There was an old widely-circulated rumor in Paris, dating back to the early 1900s, that the planned results of all pro wrestling matches were submitted to the police in advance of the matches taking place. It wasn't true, but it was a very persistent rumor that stuck around for decades. Lageat had a long-standing offer to the public that he'd give a large amount of money to anyone who could prove that rumor to be true (because no one could prove it as it wasn't true).

- Etienne Siry: I have here a decree from the Prefect of the Seine concerning a catch event that took place very recently at the Palais de la Mutualité. The letter from the prefecture is dated 11 February for an event that took place on 13 February. So it's a very recent decree. Now, there are all the provisions, the regulations of the prefecture, and I can give this to any viewer, they can read it from cover to cover, and they will not discover an article in which we must mention the results in advance as this legend has been spread for many years. Moreover, you see, there is a stipulated prescription relative to the wrestlers. Each wrestler must, 8 hours before the match, be visited by a doctor attached to the establishment where the event is to take place. And this doctor must issue a certificate declaring that the wrestler is or is not in a condition to wrestle. Any catch event is formally forbidden to abnormally built men, etc., etc. Now, there are prescriptions relative to events. Catch matches between women will be totally forbidden. Matches to the finish, that is to say pushed until one of the opponents is out of combat, are formally forbidden. The match must, moreover, be immediately stopped as soon as one of the adversaries finds himself in a state of manifest inferiority. Therefore, this legend, you see, I bring you the most formal proof, that the results are not communicated to the police service in advance.

Note: The part about women's matches being forbidden at the time is absolutely true. Women's pro wrestling was banned in Paris until 1977. 

- Maurice Durand: I'd like to add a word to what my friend Mr. Siry said. It's obvious that there's no department at the police that approves the results of catch matches in advance. It's a given. A legend. It's a grotesque fabrication. It's a bit like asking Adamo to declare his song list to the police to avoid a riot in the venue. It's just as stupid. The origin, however, of these tendentious rumors, distorted, adapted, and exaggerated by catch detractors, dates back to 1904. At the time, there were Greco-Roman wrestling tournaments at the Folies Bergère. It was common for around thirty wrestlers to participate. But 30 wrestlers meant 15 matches per evening; it was far too many. So, the organizer only presented 8 matches, that is, 16 men. And it was the list of these 16 men who competed in the 8 bouts that evening in question that was communicated to the police headquarters, the group of wrestlers including quite a few foreigners. This is exactly how, disproportionately magnified and transformed over the years, this truth about the Greco-Roman wrestlers of the Folies Bergère has become a truly stupid thing that is everywhere and surprises people in the best possible way.

- Raymond Marcillac: Sir, would you like to say something else?

- Raymond Batelain: Are there several federations or just four?

Note: In this context federation does not mean wrestling promotion. Back then in France there were pro wrestling federations (think of them as you do football federations, boxing federations, etc.) under the regulations of which the catch shows were taking place. These were governing bodies, not wrestling promotions. At first there was only one such federation in France that ruled over almost all promotions, but by 1966 all four major booking offices were associated with their own federations, and there were many smaller federations too. For more details on the various federations check out my French Catch Timeline.

- Maurice Durand: Yes, sir. There are, to my knowledge, and we're not talking about small groups, we're talking about federations, there are four of them. All four of them are represented at this table, by the way. We were the professional wing of the Fédération Française de Lutte Amateur (French Amateur Wrestling Federation). And, following disagreements between the Fédération Française de Lutte Amateur and certain organizers, we severed our relations with the Fédération Française de Lutte. So, from that moment on, we were no longer part of the National Sports Committee.

Note: Again, this is all explained in more detail in the French Catch Timeline, but very basically what Durand is referring to here is the moment in 1954 when catch stopped being legally recognized as a sport in France.

- Raymond Batelain: When you become a French champion in a category, for example, are you recognized by all four federations?

- Maurice Durand: No, sir, and I'm coming back to it again. You see, I had planned for lots of questions. It's wonderful to know your job like that, isn't it? My competitors and I are criticized for each having our own champions in every weight category. I'm happy to tell you here that we consider the only true world champion in the welterweight category to be René Ben Chemoul, who is a Goldstein exclusive. It wouldn't occur to me to dub another guy world champion, I know he's... The best is Ben Chemoul, he's here. I pay tribute to you in passing, René. No more than it would occur to my competitors to give the title of world champion, light heavyweight, to someone other than Gilbert Leduc, who is an exclusive to the Durand ranks. It's the same thing with regard to Jacky Corn, who is the son of Mr. Lageat, and who is world middleweight champion. No one, at Mr. Goldstein's or Mr. Marest's, does it occur to anyone to saddle one of their men with these three titles, for example. I can cite others for you.

Note: Back then in France each federation recognized its own champions, but indeed as Durand explained, certain guys were so synonymous with their particular championship that the rival groups would not crown their own claimant for that same championship. 

- Raymond Marcillac: There isn't an official title then?

- Maurice Durand: It's a title, Mr. Marcillac, which becomes official due to lack of competition, because we are not applying for the title of world champion of welterweights, any more than Mr. Siry, for that matter, because we know that the best is Ben Chemoul. So there is no competition...

- Robert Lageat: I'd like to respond to Mr. Marcillac when he tells me that it's not official. In America, for example, there are two or three boxing federations, and I believe there are two or three world champions. I don't think I'm wrong in saying that.

- Raymond Marcillac: It's not quite the same thing.

- Robert Lageat: The question is, since you're telling me that it's not official for us, then I'm telling you, tell me you're ready for it. Tell me who the real world champions in America are, because in America, there are still two boxing federations.

- Raymond Marcillac: I didn't tell you, Mr. Lageat, that it wasn't official. I was asking a question.

- Maurice Durand: No, it can't be official in the sacrosanct name of the Comité National des Sports (National Sports Committee), because we're no longer part of it. Just like the bullfighting federation, and it wasn't very long ago, in fact, that the matter was resolved for the rugby league federation, which was in the same position as us for a very long time, unrecognized by the CNS. Since then, things have been resolved for them. The game of bullfighting isn't part of the CNS. It still has its championships, and many licensed members, as far as I know.

- Raymond Marcillac: Are there any more people who want to ask questions? Thank you so much for coming to us. You're welcome here, so please sit to my right, as comfortably as possible. Give your first and last name, your profession, and ask the question.

- Audience member: George Crochet, restaurateur. Mr. Marest, if wrestlers actually applied their holds all the way through, wouldn't they break their limbs or kill each other? How do you explain that?

- Jean-Louis Marest: No, I think I already answered a little earlier. The wrestlers come from amateur wrestling, freestyle wrestling, Greco-Roman wrestling, judokas, and they've been wrestling for 10 or 15 years. And when their opponent places a hold on them, they try to counter or try to position themselves as best they can in order to wait for the precise moment to escape. Consequently, we always believe that the opponent or the wrestler is being held by the other. No, that's absolutely false. It's the opponent who tries to position themselves as best they can in order to wait for the precise moment to return to the fight. Besides, René Ben Chemoul could explain it even better than that.

- Etienne Siry: It's a question of skill. I once had a protégé that everyone knew very well, Robert Charron, and one day, due to a lack of skill and, precisely, a lack of knowledge, he had his arm broken by a wrestler, I don't remember which one...

- Robert Lageat: Robert Gastel.

- Etienne Siry: Robert Gastel in 4 or 5 minutes of combat.

Note: This happened in 1952. Charron was a very popular boxing star who then became a pro wrestler. There is a claim that Gastel injured Charron on purpose in that match, because he felt Charron was being disrespectful to catch and Gastel wanted to put him in his place.

- Robert Lageat: I would also say that unlike Greco-Roman and freestyle wrestling, which are static forms of wrestling, catch is a form of wrestling where you have to follow the hold to overcome. This is what gives catch its spectacular and lively quality, and what makes it, how shall I put it, a bit improbable. Obviously, if you get an armlock, if the wrestler doesn't follow through, well, the arm breaks. But the wrestler, following the hold, oversteps his legs, and the arm returns to a normal position, and I repeat, this is what gives catch its spectacular and lively quality.

- Raymond Marcillac: Mr. Lageat, I'd like to say something. It must also be said that the goal of catch isn't to break arms or legs. And when wrestlers hit the mat, at a certain point, with their arms, it's to indicate that the hold becomes dangerous at that point. So, answer that question. I'd like to know; I'm interested.

- Maurice Durand: Absolutely not.

- Robert Lageat: We should ask René Ben Chemoul, who is a wrestler.

- Maurice Durand: It's a kind of conditioned reflex, René, isn't it?

- René Ben Chemoul: Absolutely. Nothing more, nothing less. A conditioned reflex that makes us hit the mat, but it has absolutely no bearing on what the wrestler is doing.

- Raymond Marcillac: Ah, I thought it was to stop an effort.

- René Ben Chemoul: No, no, maybe it's to position yourself, you see. It's a search for the center of gravity. It's perfectly natural. You have to be able to escape more quickly afterward. No, it's true.

- Maurice Durand: We've been told that wrestlers travel together, eat together. That's a question that should also be asked. I regret the absence of our friend Roger Couderc, who could assure us that after a furious brawl that we witness on screen, and where the magic sponge makes its appearance several times, the French, Welsh, English, and other Irish find themselves together in the traditional buffet, or even in nightclubs during a joyous outing in Paris. I affirm that, in any case, although they eat and sleep together, well, with all due honor, of course, I affirm that it's always the best who leaves the ring the winner, barring any accident, of course. Our boxer friends and other defectors from a sport where they rightly shone with a bright brilliance believed that catch was a sort of golden and silver retirement home where they had only to let themselves be pushed by monetizing their name until a canonical age. A few addicts, however, I do not want to give the names of these people, but believe me, great boxers, one was knocked out in the first minute of a match in Algiers, the other, he mentioned it earlier, we can talk about it, it's Charron, he had his arm broken at the Mutualité. Guy Verrier, brand new European champion of judo 3rd dan, and sent into retirement by Jean Jourlin at the age of 30.

- Raymond Marcillac: Mr. Durand, I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to interrupt your explanations here. In fact, all the explanations these gentlemen have given have been excellent, I believe, because the time allotted to us is up now. For my part, I won't conclude; I'll simply say that catch is a sporting spectacle and that, in any case, it's a profession, and to do it well, all the same, it's hard. Thank you, gentlemen.